Forum der Vereinigung der Sternfreunde

beim MPC fühlt man sich an den Film mit dem Murmeltiertag erinnert, der sich immer wiederholt .....
Die aktuelle Kometenliste des MPC (dates of last observation of comets) bringt für März 2021 genau EINEN aktuellen Datensatz, und für April 2021 genau EINEN aktuellen Datensatz. Für die Beobachtungsplanung also VÖLLIG UNBRAUCHBAR ....

Hello Roland,

Government and Academic jobs in America are no longer filled by those qualified to do the job but by those who have friends in higher places and are of the correct political party. Any one or any group who tries to ask those in these positions of favor to do their job are met with what you see at the MPC. No one is going to tell them how to do their job and if you bother them you and your concerns will get very little response or be ignored all together. The comet community needs to understand this and work on getting a new group to replace the MPC for comet information and verification. The new political appointees at the MPC are telling you that they don't care about comets. The more the comet community complains the more the MPC will drag their feet on comet verification and notification. Welcome to the new America.

_________________
Cheers, Mike
Arizona

dear mike,
thanks for this specific information. I think in Germany / Bavaria / Austria e.g we have similar mechanisms, i could tell a lot of examples ....
nevertheless the services deteriorated, but went not down to nearly ZERO like at the MPC .....
nice to have you in this group
cu roland

Hello Roland,

Thank you, it is good to be a part of this group, I am able to learn a lot from all the experience of the members and the knowledge that they share with their thoughts and images.

It is good to see you back imaging again after your conversions. Your images taken with that nice CDS-5D camera on that fast 16" f.2.5 telescope were missed while you were away and needless to say your comet images are very impressive.

We are lucky to have Uwe, Maik, Erwin, Gideon, Nakano, Seiichi, Michael and others to step in and provide the data and ephemeris that we need to image new and recovered comets instead of having to wait for the MPC. It is sad that discoveries and the recognition that goes with the discoveries has to be blessed by the MPC.

_________________
Cheers, Mike
Arizona

Hi Mike
Now I've been hearing for a long time that the comets should no longer be made by the MPC. Then why is that called that? Who can do that?
I can confirm they ignore requests. I have repeatedly asked Michael Rudenko when the MPC will published the fragments of 141 P. I was put off. A request to the new conversation site promoted by the MPC was ignored. The MPC is no longer a competence center for comets. I think it's not just a question of good connections, it's a question of money. After all, the small bodies near the earth are more important for defense budgets than comets that are far away. Regards Michael

Hi Michael,

I do not have any answers for you Michael. I suspect that your ability to track down comets, find new comet fragments and do it with amateur equipment may not be making some of the very costly observatories run by NASA, Universities and others look so good, just my opinion. The MPC has it's relationships with these big money programs that are funding the MPC, all of these big money programs are run by those looking for funding and career progression, they can only get funding and promotions if "they" are finding fragments, not some amateur named Michael Jaeger.

As for military budgets, I don't think our military is interested in incoming asteroids or comets, they are creating enough problems on the Earth that they have to spend their money on. That is NASA's problem and the NASA budget is continually shrinking, again, not much career progression in NASA tracking asteroids or comets, NASA is about space exploration. President Trump did create a new branch of the military, I think it was called Space Command, but again, they are more interested in fighting in space than spending money or worrying about asteroids or comets.

Everything in America is about getting ones own program funded with grants, getting promotions to make more money and get more grants. The sad truth Michael is that you are very good at what you do, but you are a threat to those who want grants and promotions because it does not look good when you can use small amateur equipment to do what large observatories want millions of dollars in grants to do.

I spent my entire career working on military programs, for me it was about the job and doing it right. For most of those I worked with it was all about getting promoted, doing as little as possible and making anyone who were a threat to their next promotion look bad. That is real life Michael in Corporate America.

As for the MPC, whoever is funding them is only interested in asteroids. They probably would just as soon get rid of the comet recording problem but follow comets a little because some of the universities do have observing programs for comets. Unless you are a graduate student or some professor Michael your requests will be ignored, they only want your data to support "their" research programs.

My opinions only, but based on being in the military, working for Hughes Aircraft Company and Raytheon Company. Every program I worked on was great, but the politics about everything you could imagine made for a real nightmare as you just tried to do your job.

_________________
Cheers, Mike
Arizona

Hi Mike
Thanks for the insight. I see unequal treatment as problematic for a world organization. Had Panstarrs, Catalina or Palomar discovered the fragments, it would probably have been celebrated in the MPC long ago. Michael

Hi Michael,

I think that the first mistake that you make is assuming that the MPC is a World Organization. The MPC is basically run by Harvard University and the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory. It is my understanding that most of the MPC's funding comes from NASA as a NEO Observations Program grant. The computing power is provided by the Tamkin Foundation. NASA is an American government agency funded by Congress and their political power, as such it has all the problems that I mentioned in my last post. The same goes for Harvard and the Smithsonian. Unfortunately for comet groups around the world we don't have any "Brian Marsden" working there anymore.

Michael, you are well known in the amateur astronomy world. If you want your discoveries to be known and addressed you have to promote yourself and your work through astronomy groups, the internet and astronomy publications. You have to force the MPC to recognize your work by promoting your work to the groups that are willing to publish your results online and in the media. Put your work out there to those who will listen and are interested, forcing the hand of the MPC. The German Comet Group should be promoting your work and the work of others like you who are making discoveries involving comets. Why collect all this valuable information on comets just to put it into a database, promote yourselves, show the world the good work being done by members of the German Comet Group. Get your data out to the world, no one will do it for you. With the internet there is no excuse for not finding a good way to get new information on comets out to the world immediately. Waiting for discoveries to be blessed by an America funded agency controlled by American institutions is a losing game, they are all about politics.

Just my opinion, but it is time for the German Comet Group to start promoting itself and when a member of the group like Michael makes discoveries the group should immediately have an avenue to broadcast that information around the world to "public" forums, this information needs to not just be seen by astronomy forums. It does not cost anything with the internet except a little work putting together a network of sites to send the information to that then lets the world know about new fragments discovered by Michael. What a great way to educate the world about comets (when I bring up comets to most people their first words to me are " aren't comets those bright meteors we see flashing through the sky at night").

The MPC does not care about comets unless someone can show them that one is going to make life on Earth extinct. The MPC is not a World Organization, it just collects data from observers around the world to provide information to NASA, it really doesn't care who gives them the data and has no reason to promote anyone's findings except for friends of the MPC. Yes, it does give some recognition to the larger funded programs and those it trust, but they need to do that to keep getting free data, who knows, maybe some observatories are getting some grants to provide data.

_________________
Cheers, Mike
Arizona

Hi Mike
Thanks for the clear words. The fact is that the MPC claims to be a world organization.
This is what the MPC writes about itself

The Minor Planet Center (MPC) is the single worldwide location for receipt and distribution of positional measurements of minor planets, comets and outer irregular natural satellites of the major planets. The MPC is responsible for the identification, designation and orbit computation for all of these objects. This involves maintaining the master files of observations and orbits, keeping track of the discoverer of each object, and announcing discoveries to the rest of the world via electronic circulars and an extensive website. The MPC operates at the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, under the auspices of Division F of the International Astronomical Union (IAU).

So the MPC is doing a bad job

Regards Michael

Hi Michael,

We can all agree that the MPC does not live up to all their bragging about themselves, at least not anywhere near real time which is what is required in our modern day world. They are out of touch and are just doing a "job". I see no charter by the world anywhere that has "given" the MPC this mission. So why would anyone expect anything from them except the group funding them, NASA.

As for the MPC and their claims, evidently they have never heard of gentlemen like Syuichi Nakano, Maik Meyer and others who are generating ephemeris from data collected by others almost immediately if requested. These gentlemen also are using collected data to generate future ephemeris for expected comet returns and refine that ephemeris as new data comes in. All the MPC does is look backwards in time after collecting free data and generating ephemeris long after it is needed by the very community that gives them the data and the very community that expects the MPC to do what it brags about in near real time. It should not be to hard to realize that the MPC is not a real time organization unless their computers sound a bell and suggest that maybe there is a threat, but usually by the time the MPC computers sound that alarm there are already a bunch of amateurs who have rang the bell and have let the world know that we may have a problem. The MPC and NASA simply brag that "they" are the only ones who could put this all together.

Who would you sooner have generating ephemeris from your new data Michael, those who do it immediately or those who simply are going to their M-F job and reading what a computer is telling them after they have their first cup of coffee before they finally get around to deciding who maybe they should give some credit to in the next few months after having a long lunch. I know who I would immediately ask for ephemeris to be generated from my data and then I would disseminate that ephemeris to every amateur on the planet immediately to help get collaborating data, then I would put it all together with help from the amateur community and present it to the world through every means possible. I would not waste my time with the MPC. The MPC can read about it with their morning coffee and then after lunch decide if maybe they should give someone credit or publish it in the next few months to no one who cares by then, old news.

Did you know that I am the worst comet imager in the history of the world, just my opinion that I write about myself of what I do and my results. Anyone can say anything that they want to, all they have to do is get others to believe it. Show me the world charter that has made the MPC the world organization clearing agent for asteroid and comet data. Since you can't find that document I will simply ask everyone that complains about the MPC why you would expect anything more from them than what we get.

The MPC works for NASA, not us. The MPC won't change, so certainly there are better ways for the comet community to do what the MPC won't, I personally don't waste my time with the MPC since I am the worst comet imager in the history of the world anyway and my data would probably just get rejected.

As my late Uncle once said to me one day when I was a young boy working on his farm, we had problems and I was frustrated, "Look around, do you see anyone else around here who is going to help us with our problems? The sooner you quit complaining and we fix our problems the sooner we get done and back to work." My Uncle never had to say that to me again. No one ever had to say that to me again. Words of Wisdom.

_________________
Cheers, Mike
Arizona

Hi Mike
I can already understand your emotions. In the absence of an alternative, all we can say now is that they are doing a bad job. And as long as only a few say that, it won't change anything. That's the reality. Cheers Michael

Hello Michael,

as I was one who said that maybe there are some changes with the MPC in the near future I have to admit now that the changes were not for the better. My source was more optimistic about what changes may happen and in the end the change was just the director and apparently not the general course when it comes to comets.

Here's what I say: Complain. Complain a lot. Directly to the MPC. There will be no change if we only complain in mailing lists.

Brian rotiert in seinem Grab. Glücklicherweise muss er das nicht erleben.

Maik

Perhaps protests at the IAU will be more effective? But who is the IAU?

at least the page "Last observation of comets" is up to date now - that was the reason starting this thread - maybe we have MPC followers

Hallo Kometenjäger,
gestern gegen 21 Uhr hab ich neue Daten geladen es sind sogar die beiden von Uwe heute früh eingestellten mit dabei. Es klappt anscheinend wieder.

Auf klare Nächte
Michael