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Hi Thierry ,


nice summary , indeed, I am rather shocked obout your statement, but I am not at all surprised about this.


I can understand , that you will cancel your mission, on the other hand, you could be the only one who could be able to improve this very very bad situation.


I cannot understand this at all.


I'll send a copy to Th. Eversberg and Lothar Schanne. I am interested, what they will say.....


Cordialement Berthold

Herzlicher Gruss Berthold

Am 21.07.2013 um 11:18 schrieb Thierry Garrel <gabalou@gmail.com (gabalou@gmail.com)>:

Berthold,i've already write to Thomas, and he said only that everything is OK, keep continue observations (?!). Seems that is a political correct answer empty of meaning. Lothar Schnanne was in copy of all discussions of last week as well as Canadians. Only Thomas speaking for nothing.
The fact now is that we loose the support of the observatory. They have dismantle the fovia to go to the Carlo Sanchez Telescope cause our mission is no longer respected certainly cause of the behavior of some members teams. Telescope is damaged, eshel cables and IGU connections are too.
I wanted you know about the very bad situation on this very good place, cause Thomas is hidden the true to others teams who paid much to go there for observing in good conditions.
Cheers
Thierry



2013/7/21 Berthold Stober <fg-spek-convento@vds-astro.de (fg-spek-convento@vds-astro.de)>

_________________
Thierry Garrel
Observatoire de Fontcaude, Montpellier, France
SpectroBlog http://gabalou.canalblog.com/

Thierry, Berthold!

I would highly appreciate if you could be more modest here. The present FOVIA situation has nothing to do with “bad behaviour” of some team members but with priorities at Teide observatory. Please do not send such wild guesses around the world (many pros are email connected to the forum and get the wrong impression). By doing so you will not help the campaign.

If I do not send around specific information about Teide issues than because they are of no importance for us. It is of high importance, though if some members reject their announced participation in public. I have been contacted many times for the CCD problems (see below) and when I say we have no problem then I first harmonize it with the pros. This has nothing to do with “politics”. I hide no information and it is important to listen to me and our PIs in Montreal. If the Eshel and the guiding unit would be damaged we would not have our data. Please stop telling such things. If it is indeed damaged I like to ask who did that?

I have no problems when complaining in private or at a meeting but I have if it is done in public!

Thomas

Something for everybody!

During the last three weeks we repeatedly had technical problems at IAC80. In addition, since the beginning of our run we have read-out problems with the camera and/or laptop. Because of numerous emails about asking for a new CCD, laptop etc. I need to make a statement about how to proceed.

- Our read-out problems introducing split and shifted images is no real problem. My comment is harmonized with our scientific PIs in Montréal. They can re-arrange the mixed rectangular area on the CCD by simple algorithms. The data quality itself is not corrupted because all high quality intensity information is still available on the chip. This is not valid for ThAr lamps which should always be repeated in case of read-out problems.

- Some of you urge us to install a new CCD and/or laptop. This suggestion is interesting and has been discussed with the pros. However, when manipulating the apparatus we take the risk to reduce SNR. Neglecting the split-and-shifted images we have no real problem. And this only one will be solved during data reduction.

- I fully understand that this situation might be frustrating for some of you preferring a 100% reliable system. However, our campaign at Teide has almost thirty observers and we can not afford that every single team changes the setup, even if considered to be out of experts. Please note that already the first two teams unsuccessfully tried to solve this trouble. It is most difficult to solve such problems via email during an ongoing run. Again, the read-out problem is no real problem. So, please leave it as it is and do not start ongoing new discussions here.

- The mechanical problems at IAC80 can only be solved by the local stuff. They set our user conditions and we must accept them. Please do not complain in public about their great service.

- Some of you might be frustrated about the overall campaign management. It might be that my organization could be improved and that your holiday times and money, kindly spend for our efforts, should deserve a better facility and management. In this sense I take full responsibility for all faults and mismanagement. I am sure that at least one of you could do a better job. Please keep in mind, though, that ALL Teide observers spend their private resourced and ALL of them do their best. This might be less for one and more for another. But they all do their BEST and as well donate their private fundings. Without them you would not observe at Teide 2013. For this reason I would appreciate if you could leave such a comparison out of our public discussions.

Beside more observatories we are working together with the following sites: Ondrojev, Birmingham, Amsterdam, Mont Megantic, Dominion, Toledo, Keck. Such a very big and very long campaign requires maximum discipline from everybody. This unfortunately includes acceptance of various decisions by the scientists and the management as well as action as an “observing servant” for the campaign. Always keep in mind that we are many and not only single teams.

Cheers, Thomas

Am 21.07.2013 um 11:18 schrieb Thierry Garrel <gabalou@gmail.com>:
Hello Thierry,

I think it's better if you do not cancel your stay at the IAC 80th.
You have a lot of experience with the problems like there and will
much better manage with your know how then other team members with
less knowledge and experience. Therefore, you should not cancel in the
interest of the whole campaign.
It is obviously a serious problem that often the technical service or
other reasons require the dismantling of our injection unit. After
that cables are loose or other connections such as the fibers. But for
experienced people like you that's not a serious problem.
You are free in your decision. But I beg you not to leave the campaign
now. You're needed on IAC80. I am fairly Berthold's opinion.

Cordialement
Lothar





--
Dr. Lothar Schanne
Feldbergstrasse 62
68163 Mannheim

_________________
Herzliche Grüße / best regards

Lothar

https://lotharschanne.wordpress.com/

Hi everyone,

The science PIs here in Montreal fully appreciate and respect the difficulties that are arising at Teide. I personally think Thomas has done a great job coordinating observers, getting us the four months of time at the 0.8m, and bringing this campaign to fruition. Of course, it also relies heavily on the people that install the instrument (provided by Berthold), obtain the calibration frames, test that the data can be used, and of course, it largely depends on the observers. The large number of observers at Teide means that we have some people that have done tons of observing throughout many years, and some that only recently learned the night sky.

Overall, THANK YOU TO EVERYONE INVOLVED!

I have had a number of emails that I haven't replied to because I don't feel that I am the most qualified to respond, and I know that the other science PIs in Montreal feel similarly. Issues related to guiding at the telescope (moved due to the priorities at the IAC, and has nothing to do with our campaign), declination motors (has to be fixed by the technicians there, and no one should have to work every day for four months straight to support this or any other campaign) or other things at Teide are beyond our control. At the University of Montreal, we are not able to do anything about the telescope. We are only able to say things about the data obtained, and a grad student who arrives next month will be in charge of the reductions and analysis, so we've only had a brief look at the data so far.

The readout issue is minor, and is easily corrected with the software tools I regularly use in my own research. I managed to correct several images, and get results consistent with images taken immediately before/after that were of the same star. This is only a cosmetic issue for observers, and will not effect the end results.

To the observers both at Teide and scheduled still to come, remember that while there have been some difficulties, we need you! The success of the campaign relies on excellent observers, and I think our team is top notch and will produce some great science this summer. I hope that everything works well again on Monday when the technicians are back for the week. In the mean time, amateurs around the globe can still produce some really meaningful results with their telescopes and spectrographs, images, and time spent observing. Here in Quebec, we have time through the 28th of the month at our 1.6m for the campaign, and the next few nights look to have good weather.

Cheers,

Noel

Hi,The true problem is now that the telescope is out of service. How doing observations then ? We really enjoyed this missions at IAC80, a second time for me and the spectra you've got first were excellent and deserve your setup while unexpected readout problem appeared. The Telescope is very good, accurate and sharp, and also has a very good support from the observatory. But how such a telescope has been given to some unconscious peoples who for some of them has never been involved in anything in astronomy and slept at command or flew away around the island for several days ? I understand now that our campaign is no longer thoroughly support, Daniel has even to pay one computer screen from it own money, to continue manual guiding while the telescope was on.
Waiting if it is possible to repair or not. I can support the campaign as others members of my team from my own observatory. 
Cheers
Thierry



2013/7/21 Noel Richardson <fg-spek-convento@vds-astro.de (fg-spek-convento@vds-astro.de)>

_________________
Thierry Garrel
Observatoire de Fontcaude, Montpellier, France
SpectroBlog http://gabalou.canalblog.com/

Hello team members!


I feel this email should go to everyone of us.


I am in a country with economical, social, and now political crisis (not hard to find, these days); and I can blame whom ever I wish for the situation my country is in, simply because any politician will have done something I can blame. Even the politicians are in crisis as some want to resign! But I must work every day on my own job regardless of the impact this situation has on it, even if work colleagues understandably become poised by bad mood. Our president has said yesterday the best solution is to keep the current "team"! (note he did not say "optimal solution", he said "best"). This would probably be Off Topic if no similarities were present...



I am in this campaign and will be in this campaign until its end, and will be going to Teide! I am on the last team, and I will pack all the equipment in a box by my own definition of "perfect"! (I promised this to Berthold)
I will do my part in the observation by my own definition of "Best possible way". I have already said to my bank account this money is going to disappear.
When we do our part well, accidents (or incidents) may happen: this is a rule of life (some call it Murphy's law . Unexpected things happen and we need (yes, NEED) to deal with them, preferably in the "best possible way at the time of reaction". In any case, after something is done, it can never be scratched from the History book. We must simply continue writing in the unwritten pages of that book!! We can still go a few pages back and read the book if we want.


Some of us did not expect how hard a situation can become and, here in Portugal, I am one of those people! (I am not too affected yet, but I see what is happening around me)
So, I will want to discuss about the experience we will have had by the end, things to improve, things to prevent.. But, please, after I pack the equipment in the "return box"!! I am very sure there will huge amounts of knowledge coming from this experience that will be usable in future endeavors, just like it happened in WR140! (I learned a bit on being two weeks with the same teammate(s))


Someone alone at the telescope will have done an excellent job by doing less than what two people can do, understandably -- Great job by Daniel Verilhac, needs to be mentioned!! So, in some cases, one person needs to be at the telescope alone. If a member cannot go to Teide for some reason, the IAC80 will have one member less in the team, but we all desire complete teams. Being alone at the mountain top is hard enough, working there alone is harder still!


To those uncertain of the best way to contribute to the campaign, I wish to influence in chosing not the "optimal decision" regarding ways to contribute to the campaign, but to take the "best decision" for the campaign as a member of the team. Professionals are used to having problems and dealing with them. Even now they have a problem with "broken telescope(s) somewhere in the island" (if you pardon my expression) and they want to continue using it, not sending everyone to smaller observatories with perfectly working telescopes (regardless of seeing or weather conditions). The Portuguese President said on TV last night that our current government should be kept in power, not as the optimal solution, but as the best.


I wanted to build my observatory before this summer. It has not happened!! So I need vacations to do it! My vacations are currently occupied by me going to Teide, so I cannot build my observatory or observe the targets because I am going to Teide. I chose to make this decision; it was mine, and others need not do the same. But I am in favor of being present at Teide as planned.
I can only write on my little History Book that "I was proud" or "not" after the end of the campaign.. The page for that is still as white as IAC80's dome!


Best (or optimal) wishes to everyone!


Fil.

_________________
Fil.

Hi Fil,

Well said!
I am not a Teide team member but I do hope, and believe, that despite the numerous problems the campaign will succeed if each team makes the effort and commitment. I believe the Indians have a saying ... ?it will be alright in the end; if it is not alright, it is not the end?.

Good luck to you all,
Bernard



From: Filipe Dias (fg-spek-convento@vds-astro.de)
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 10:49 PM
To: fg-spek-convento@vds-astro.de (fg-spek-convento@vds-astro.de)
Subject: [fg-spek] Re: What going on in IAC80




Hello team members!


I feel this email should go to everyone of us.


I am in a country with economical, social, and now political crisis (not hard to find, these days); and I can blame whom ever I wish for the situation my country is in, simply because any politician will have done something I can blame. Even the politicians are in crisis as some want to resign! But I must work every day on my own job regardless of the impact this situation has on it, even if work colleagues understandably become poised by bad mood. Our president has said yesterday the best solution is to keep the current "team"! (note he did not say "optimal solution", he said "best"). This would probably be Off Topic if no similarities were present...



I am in this campaign and will be in this campaign until its end, and will be going to Teide! I am on the last team, and I will pack all the equipment in a box by my own definition of "perfect"! (I promised this to Berthold)
I will do my part in the observation by my own definition of "Best possible way". I have already said to my bank account this money is going to disappear.
When we do our part well, accidents (or incidents) may happen: this is a rule of life (some call it Murphy's law . Unexpected things happen and we need (yes, NEED) to deal with them, preferably in the "best possible way at the time of reaction". In any case, after something is done, it can never be scratched from the History book. We must simply continue writing in the unwritten pages of that book!! We can still go a few pages back and read the book if we want.


Some of us did not expect how hard a situation can become and, here in Portugal, I am one of those people! (I am not too affected yet, but I see what is happening around me)
So, I will want to discuss about the experience we will have had by the end, things to improve, things to prevent.. But, please, after I pack the equipment in the "return box"!! I am very sure there will huge amounts of knowledge coming from this experience that will be usable in future endeavors, just like it happened in WR140! (I learned a bit on being two weeks with the same teammate(s))


Someone alone at the telescope will have done an excellent job by doing less than what two people can do, understandably -- Great job by Daniel Verilhac, needs to be mentioned!! So, in some cases, one person needs to be at the telescope alone. If a member cannot go to Teide for some reason, the IAC80 will have one member less in the team, but we all desire complete teams. Being alone at the mountain top is hard enough, working there alone is harder still!


To those uncertain of the best way to contribute to the campaign, I wish to influence in chosing not the "optimal decision" regarding ways to contribute to the campaign, but to take the "best decision" for the campaign as a member of the team. Professionals are used to having problems and dealing with them. Even now they have a problem with "broken telescope(s) somewhere in the island" (if you pardon my expression) and they want to continue using it, not sending everyone to smaller observatories with perfectly working telescopes (regardless of seeing or weather conditions). The Portuguese President said on TV last night that our current government should be kept in power, not as the optimal solution, but as the best.


I wanted to build my observatory before this summer. It has not happened!! So I need vacations to do it! My vacations are currently occupied by me going to Teide, so I cannot build my observatory or observe the targets because I am going to Teide. I chose to make this decision; it was mine, and others need not do the same. But I am in favor of being present at Teide as planned.
I can only write on my little History Book that "I was proud" or "not" after the end of the campaign.. The page for that is still as white as IAC80's dome!


Best (or optimal) wishes to everyone!


Fil.



Fil.





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_________________
Quicquid Nitet Notandum

Hi all,nice words Fil. What is the most important in a Team is sharing information. The situation at Teide was known by a few from many weeks but not by Daniel and me. Daniel has discovered the hidden face. So why haven't  take the problem in charge at the right time before one french guys totally lost, sacrificed its mission. Believe me he is very angry from this and i understand him.
 Now the most important is that the telescope is in repair by IAC Teams and Daniel help too. The problem is worse than simple crushed cables, Daniel could explain it, they worked all yesterday, but i feel more confident that the telescope will return on line soon.
So we keep our missions on, bringing even a new telescope (not a 0,8m), a new eshel, LhiresIII, CCDs, computer, everything in spare (fiber optics, lamp). Pierre and Alain are specialist of auto-guiding systems. Their system ITE-Lente is working at La Silla, Pic du Midi, St Veran... and in many proam observatories. If IAC agree They can install one of these system at IAC without modifying anything. We bring three of this system, in case of.
Cheers
T



2013/7/22 Bernard Heathcote <fg-spek-convento@vds-astro.de (fg-spek-convento@vds-astro.de)>

_________________
Thierry Garrel
Observatoire de Fontcaude, Montpellier, France
SpectroBlog http://gabalou.canalblog.com/

Hi Thierry, good to see your efforts! What about after your two week period. Will you dismantle everything again you intend to install now? Can you guarantee a stable system afterwards?

Thomas

Tuesday july 23 18h UT

The telescope don't work another night ...S

Warning !
In this mail I say what I think, I'm like that, sorry


First part: astro and technic

In spite of the work of the IAC technicians, who worked many hours more they have to do it's impossible to have the telescope for tonight. They tell me that there is a problem and they cannot be sure it will be cleared tomorrow...


It will be the fourth night without observing, if I add the half night of friday it make 4.5.....

And I don't speak about Fovia: hand guiding is possible, tiring but possible!
I've never move back in front of the job... and I have never abandonned friends,that is my rule.

But I have also an other rule:
"I say what I think and I think what I say!"


I resume for those who don't know:

friday 12: arriving a night with the previous team
Saturday 13: Night: alone, fovia works
spectras:
134 x 3
135 x 2
137 x 2
sunday 14 idem
spectras:
134 x 2
135 x 3
137 x 3
monday 15 fovia is removed to TCS: hand guiding, alone
spectras:
134 x 2
135 x 1
137 x 2
tuesday 16 idem, pointing errors (managed by the assistant)
spectras:
134 x 2
135 x 1
137 x 1
wednesday 17 idem only one pointing error (assitant)
spectras:
134 x 3
135 x 2
137 x 2
thursday 18 Bartek (team colleague) is back, but very tired (he come back from a workshop...) another problem withthe telescope, the assistant manage)
spectras:
134 x 2
135 x 3
137 x 2
friday 19 near 2 h UT the telescope break down...
spectras:
134 x 1
135 x 1
137 x 1
I think I didn't take a rest! for each night Zeta and alpha..and the daks and all....

saturday20 and sunday 21 it's week-end: nothing moves...
monday 22 technician come to repair: not possible
tuesday 23 idem,

The technician who have worked more than they have to do, says to me that the telescope is out of order and they cannot say when it will be ready ... maybe tomorrow ... or not!

What can I say about the spectrographic setup:

Every body knows the readout problems, personnally I had never seen such destroyed images... Normally you have not to check every picture..
the camera must work ...

I know it's possible to repair some bad ones after but it could be easier to have a good camera, and it's not so expensive!

I've been working with pro: i've never see this kind of problem!

The science camera is not fixed on the eShell spectro... I have to change it of place (for the technicians) and I was horrified to see how it is (not) fixed...

Idem for the guiding camera on the box under the telescope: I understand why the is never in the same place: the camera is bad screwed (like the science one) and the jonction between box and c
amera can turn as it wants...

second, less important but...
There is no spare fiber, no spare computer... What sould we do if breakdown???

The previous team explain to me how to use fovia... the day after I asked the assitant, because i think it was not the good way to do ...
Exactly: you don't put the star in the square but the square on the star..
It's very simple, like an "amateur" guiding software...
(Just know what you do and use your brain! )

I don't speak about passwords of computer of IAC renaming and so... and the difficult to send data on the server in Montreal

This was for the astronomic and technical part!

Now is the human part....

Maybe, some people sould prefer to not ear what I will say, or maybe they prefer that nobody knows it....

Sorry, but it is life! (and my rule)

I think (I could say I am sure) that the behaviour of some previous team(s) was not correct, not correct with the IAC staff, not correct with science and what for we are here. Not correct with the students who will work on the datas...

ie:
When I arrive I had to clean the fridge, into it I found old meal, forgot since many weeks, it was rotten, with mushroms... (and not only one plate!)

The staff here tell me that it is forbbiden to use the kitchen... Why? because some abuse... (now I can)

I also ear that some where drunk... alcool is not forbidden in the observatory (they sell beer in the residencia) , just be serious

I also ear about nights whith nobody to observe because some prefer to go in the city...

And I don't say all, relation with staff usw..

Remember: it's not a holiday camp! It's a scientific campain...

I'm also sad of the answers of some people, i'm not here to press on a button and shut up when it doesn't works...

It's not because some had problems in other observatories that it justifies to have here... This speech is not a good reason for me.
(ie: "you will know the life of a student" I've been student many years ago
"you will know how a pro works" sorry but i work with pro and we don't work like this...
"take the pictures, they will see later..." i'm not her as a slave, i'm here because I like astro, I'm not a learned monkey !
And more...

If this campaign can exist it's because amateurs astronomers are here, don't take them for clowns!


Warning: this mail is harsh, but it's what I think.

If it is removed from the forum I will considere as "denied democraty"

Also a big thanks to all who send me support mails

Have good day or night.

Daniel,